Comments on: for a moment this good time would never end; you and me, you and me http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/for-a-moment-this-good-time-would-never-end-you-and-me-you-and-me/ You trying to get all up in the Kool-Aid, but you don't even know the flavor. Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:18:22 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU hourly 1 By: yr pal in nyc http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/for-a-moment-this-good-time-would-never-end-you-and-me-you-and-me/#comment-566 yr pal in nyc Mon, 05 May 2008 23:39:52 +0000 http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-566 As far as the "Scared White Guy Scale" goes, how exactly does it apply here, where the only cop who even appears 'white' is of Lebanese descent? The "overly aggressive NYPD cop" scale might serve better. As far as the “Scared White Guy Scale” goes, how exactly does it apply here, where the only cop who even appears ‘white’ is of Lebanese descent? The “overly aggressive NYPD cop” scale might serve better.

]]> By: Phanatic http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/for-a-moment-this-good-time-would-never-end-you-and-me-you-and-me/#comment-536 Phanatic Fri, 02 May 2008 15:48:46 +0000 http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-536 That's fine, and there's an argument to be made that that's what the law should do too, but it doesn't. There isn't one standard of self-defense for cops, and another for non-cops. That doesn't mean that the judge in this case arrived at a bad decision, since he's bound to apply the law as it's written. That’s fine, and there’s an argument to be made that that’s what the law should do too, but it doesn’t. There isn’t one standard of self-defense for cops, and another for non-cops. That doesn’t mean that the judge in this case arrived at a bad decision, since he’s bound to apply the law as it’s written.

]]> By: Professor Coldheart http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/for-a-moment-this-good-time-would-never-end-you-and-me-you-and-me/#comment-532 Professor Coldheart Fri, 02 May 2008 14:27:30 +0000 http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-532 You're right - I do hold badges to higher standards than civilians. I won't argue otherwise. You’re right - I do hold badges to higher standards than civilians. I won’t argue otherwise.

]]> By: Phanatic http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/for-a-moment-this-good-time-would-never-end-you-and-me-you-and-me/#comment-531 Phanatic Fri, 02 May 2008 14:24:14 +0000 http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-531 Perhaps because he was in fear for his life and was acting on fear and adrenaline? Seriously, you're trying to trap self-defenders in a Catch-22. For it to be legitimate self-defense, they have to be in *fear* for their *lives*. They have to believe that, if they don't draw and fire, they're probably going to *die*. That means their adrenaline's pumping, their visual field narrows down to a tunnel, heart rate goes through the roof, and they're acting on what they've practiced. Then you expect someone in that state to instantly recognize the moment the threat stops, to coolly and rationally and dispassionately take in the whole scene and realize "I can stop shooting now, I'm safe"? No, people don't work like that, either psychologically or physiologically. Perhaps because he was in fear for his life and was acting on fear and adrenaline?

Seriously, you’re trying to trap self-defenders in a Catch-22. For it to be legitimate self-defense, they have to be in *fear* for their *lives*. They have to believe that, if they don’t draw and fire, they’re probably going to *die*. That means their adrenaline’s pumping, their visual field narrows down to a tunnel, heart rate goes through the roof, and they’re acting on what they’ve practiced.

Then you expect someone in that state to instantly recognize the moment the threat stops, to coolly and rationally and dispassionately take in the whole scene and realize “I can stop shooting now, I’m safe”?

No, people don’t work like that, either psychologically or physiologically.

]]> By: Professor Coldheart http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/for-a-moment-this-good-time-would-never-end-you-and-me-you-and-me/#comment-513 Professor Coldheart Thu, 01 May 2008 13:18:45 +0000 http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-513 Then why did it take one of the four cops 31 shots - two full mags - to "defend" himself? Why did the others stop after seven shots or four, having successfully brought the oncoming car to a halt? Then why did it take one of the four cops 31 shots - two full mags - to “defend” himself? Why did the others stop after seven shots or four, having successfully brought the oncoming car to a halt?

]]> By: Phanatic http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/for-a-moment-this-good-time-would-never-end-you-and-me-you-and-me/#comment-511 Phanatic Thu, 01 May 2008 13:08:03 +0000 http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-511 This is a nonexistent distincion; cops have the same legal right to self-defense that the rest of the general population does; they don't give it up when they identify themselves as police officers. They weren't defending themselves from a random agressor, they were defending themselves from their suspect who was attempting to run them over. This is a nonexistent distincion; cops have the same legal right to self-defense that the rest of the general population does; they don’t give it up when they identify themselves as police officers. They weren’t defending themselves from a random agressor, they were defending themselves from their suspect who was attempting to run them over.

]]> By: Professor Coldheart http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/for-a-moment-this-good-time-would-never-end-you-and-me-you-and-me/#comment-510 Professor Coldheart Thu, 01 May 2008 11:40:18 +0000 http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-510 In which case they weren't defending themselves from a random aggressor - they were discharging their duties as police officers. Which invokes the "reasonable use of force" doctrine. In which case they weren’t defending themselves from a random aggressor - they were discharging their duties as police officers. Which invokes the “reasonable use of force” doctrine.

]]> By: symme7ry http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/for-a-moment-this-good-time-would-never-end-you-and-me-you-and-me/#comment-509 symme7ry Thu, 01 May 2008 09:36:15 +0000 http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-509 From wikipedia: "One of Bell's friends was heard to say "yo, get my gun and kill that dumb white bitch" as they left the scene. Fearing a shooting may occur, the detective followed the men to their car while alerting his backup team, prompting the team to confront Bell and his companions before they could leave the scene" ...so if that is true, the cops had some reason to believe someone in the car was armed. From wikipedia:

“One of Bell’s friends was heard to say “yo, get my gun and kill that dumb white bitch” as they left the scene. Fearing a shooting may occur, the detective followed the men to their car while alerting his backup team, prompting the team to confront Bell and his companions before they could leave the scene”

…so if that is true, the cops had some reason to believe someone in the car was armed.

]]> By: Jordan Bassior http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/for-a-moment-this-good-time-would-never-end-you-and-me-you-and-me/#comment-507 Jordan Bassior Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:57:40 +0000 http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-507 <i>But Wright points out the following: Blacks accounted for 66 percent of those killed by New York City police between 2000 and 2007 (New York is a perennial leader in police fatalities, averaging 12 a year over those years). And while the violent crime rate plunged to historically low levels in that time period, the number of people killed by police has not budged—indeed, the number of cop bullets fired has skyrocketed. And it's happened with impunity. Out of 88 fatal shootings, including at least 12 in which victims were unarmed, in only one instance was an officer convicted of criminal wrongdoing. So Giuliani didn't reduce violence so much as outsource it to the NYPD. Juking the numbers, if you will.</i> That only follows if the amount of police violence, either in frequency or severity, increased to match the decline in non-police violence, which is <i>highly</i> improbable. Also, by and large those who suffer police violence are criminals; while those who suffer from criminal violence are far less likely to be criminals than those who suffer police violence. So your evidence fails to support your conclusion. But Wright points out the following:

Blacks accounted for 66 percent of those killed by New York City police between 2000 and 2007 (New York is a perennial leader in police fatalities, averaging 12 a year over those years). And while the violent crime rate plunged to historically low levels in that time period, the number of people killed by police has not budged—indeed, the number of cop bullets fired has skyrocketed. And it’s happened with impunity. Out of 88 fatal shootings, including at least 12 in which victims were unarmed, in only one instance was an officer convicted of criminal wrongdoing.
So Giuliani didn’t reduce violence so much as outsource it to the NYPD. Juking the numbers, if you will.

That only follows if the amount of police violence, either in frequency or severity, increased to match the decline in non-police violence, which is highly improbable. Also, by and large those who suffer police violence are criminals; while those who suffer from criminal violence are far less likely to be criminals than those who suffer police violence. So your evidence fails to support your conclusion.

]]> By: Professor Coldheart http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/for-a-moment-this-good-time-would-never-end-you-and-me-you-and-me/#comment-506 Professor Coldheart Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:03:01 +0000 http://periscopedepth.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-506 I asked above: were they ordering him to stop, as police, or were they defending themselves against someone who charged at them (meaning, as undercovers who had not yet identified themselves)? I asked above: were they ordering him to stop, as police, or were they defending themselves against someone who charged at them (meaning, as undercovers who had not yet identified themselves)?

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